Watch The Hater Thone: Everyone Vs. Dustin on Jay-Z & Kanye

Vijay: Jay and Kanye's album was inevitable. But is it any good?

Dustin: No.

(I haven't listened to it yet but I'm just placing my bets ahead of time)

Vijay: Who invited the meh merchant?

Sanjay: Dustin, I'm totally shocked that you don't (won't) like it. I mean, not everything can be as revolutionary as the Black Keys. As for it peaking at track 1, you should try listening to the other 15 tracks before making such a claim.

 

Dustin: Oh no you di-in't! You trying to musical throw down with me? Ninja please. Now you're actually making me want to listen to the album, just for the purpose of arguing. Unless of course it actually somehow magically turns out to be good, in which case I would be happy to have a new rap album I like. But two blowhard pop douchebags like Kanye and Jay-Z? Come on. Wait, let me guess, the first track is about how they're really good rappers who make a lot of money? Wait, let me guess, all 15 tracks are about that? Maybe some persecution mixed in? Haters gonna hate on the kings of all time! The best musicians in the history of the earth! Oh man, I can't wait to listen to this amazing, refreshing, groundbreaking album.

 

Sanjay: Instead of wasting your time writing yet another one of your sarcastic rants that attempts to denigrate a popular album, why don't you just admit that you don't like Kanye/Jay-Z? The funniest part of this whole thing is that you haven't even listened to the album yet. Truly hilarious.

Dustin: The funniest part is that I just made a joke and already admitted I don't like them, but you're actually upset and passionately defending two rich dicks who couldn't give a shit about you, their fans or anyone else.
 

Vijay: You know what else is supposed to be fun? Braggadocio in hip hop! And, more importantly, music in general: love (getting genuinely obsessed with albums/sharing that enthusiasm) > hate (pleasure derived from actively disliking stuff for sport).

Dustin: I don't know why Vijay and Sanjay are always assuming I hate stuff for sport. I LOVE music. I constantly obsess over it. I met my wife at the Bowery Ballroom. Trust me, when I don't like something, I really mean it. It's not for fun. But hey, if you guys get this upset just from someone making little jokes about albums you like, that's it. I will remain quiet from here on in. I really just meant it in fun. I enjoyed the whole BattleOverBands thing a lot and never took it personal, but I guess it's not for everyone (even though Vijay was really good at it).

 

Vijay: Dude, don't take my testy brother too seriously. We enjoy these battles and maybe it just comes across like we're taking it personally because we're always on the defensive. I think I remember you once defending Wolfmother on battleoverbands but I think more often than not you played the role of hater, no? Maybe we should just move on to the das racist track matt just posted above because i think we can all agree that it's terrible!

 

Sanjay: Dude, I'm not upset. You can say whatever you want - whether it's a joke or not, but if I say anything back it means I'm taking it personally and getting upset? Far from it - you express your opinion, I express mine.

Tim: Dustin might be talking trash, but let's check the good points. While I am really enjoying the production on the album, the lyrical content is not that great. Dustin is right that it's Yeezy's typical themes of money and persecution, which I have a hard time reconciling. For someone so successful, he sure whines a lot. That said, I like the first track. Check this for additional counterpoint.

Vijay: Did you guys actually read the piece that I posted before this little spat broke out? I highly recommend it - it's brilliant and includes gems like, "it is music that is self-consciously epic, more overwhelming than enjoyable, an attempt to make a blockbuster rather than a classic, in which every moment of arrogance or humility radiates in the same IMAX high-definition" and "what makes hip-hop such a durable form is its capacity to scramble fiction and fact; the artifice and the realities that art conceals or amplifies become one. In this way, watch the throne feels astonishingly different. It captures two artists who no longer need dreams; art cannot possibly prophesy a better future for either of them."

Dustin: See - Tim knows what I'm saying. Yes - I haven't had time to listen to this album yet but I cannot imagine the lyrics are going to do it for me. Lyrics can be overlooked in other genres, like when you're listening to some psychedelic rock song and you have no idea what it's about but you don't care because the singer is really just another instrument. But rap is really ABOUT the lyrics, more and more so these days. Jay-Z raps about the most typical boring shit, it's so tired. And the dude even admitted he's a sellout by saying "Oh if I wasn't worrying about making money I'd rap like Talib." Meanwhile Kanye is just a really ignorant, obnoxious person. Beyond his antics, what has he told people? Drop out of college. It's okay to buy diamonds even if you feel guilty about it because they're shiny. Sure, he makes some good beats but it's hard to bob my head to an idiot blabbing nonsense. 

And both of these guys, when they say they're the best, I think they really believe it, which is ridiculous considering their contributions to music. Besides sales they have done nothing to advance music. Nothing. I assure you 100 years from now, if we are not living in an apocalyptic nightmare and people still talk about music, music historians will credit Run DMC and Public Enemy and even The Roots for advancing rap more than Jay-Z and Kanye.

Vijay: I find a lot of "conscious" hip hop boring and forced. If a beat is bangin' and the flow is there I don't care if they're spitting dungeons & dragons warlock shit like some of the metal bands out there. And saying these guys haven't contributed to music/hip hop just because they don't suit your particular tastes is right up there with the egotistical/delusional rhymes on the album - I'm guessing you're similarly dismissive of pop music in general (substantively "nonsense") and that's what music historians will be talking about, not the obscure stuff we often prefer.

Tim: @Vij: In response to your comment before last, that article had nothing to do with your comments until now. You asked people what they thought and then advocated on the album's behalf. We're responding to you, not the article.
 

In response to Dustin's last post, I wouldn't go that far. I think Ye's last album definitely advanced hip hop. The bold steps forward in production have carried over to this album, which further pushes the idea that the "beat" for a rap song can come in many and genuinely artistic forms. However, the lyrics disappoint as I said and as your cited article states, "Watch the Throne suffers from a perverse sense of perspective, entire histories invoked to justify two men's fortunes."
 

While rap lyrics have long revolved around money and its acquisition, many listeners probably enjoyed the idea of achieving the same thing or enjoying what they have achieved in a similar manner. Ye and Hov and their lyrics are so far beyond wealthy that there is no possibility of relating to it.
 

I don't absolutely require lyrical artistry to enjoy it, but I do need lyrical entertainment. Part of the problem is that despite this image of complex artist, Ye is fairly transparent. His m.o. seems to be do something ludicrous and then rap about persecuted when people note that it's ludicrous.
 

In sum, love the production, hate Ye's whiny bits. 

The Madbury Club piece summed up the lyrical issue nicely: "'Twos' is his masterpiece: free of radio influence, brand name drops, subliminal disses, and any other caveats that became so expected of his verses." 

Dustin: In response to some various points made here:

• I'm not suggesting I prefer "conscious" hiphop. I'm just saying Jay-Z and Kanye in particular spout lyrics I do not care for, for reasons Tim touched on, ie. taking braggadocio to a point where it is no longer fun, but simply obnoxious. 

• I'm not saying Jay and Kanye aren't successful, but I don't see how they advanced music. What was the revolution that resulted from either of them? Jay-Z turned hiphop even further into a business. That's a negative result to me. Kanye made some nice beats. Nothing revolutionary though. It's not like Paul's Boutique here. Please, tell me what they're musical contributions are, besides making lots of hits and lots of money. I would love to know. 

• I'm not dismissive of pop, even if I don't like it. Of course I don't think there has been much great true pop since Prince and MJ, but even someone like Lady Gaga, while I don't like her music, I can appreciate her creativity as an artist and her message, which, from what I read about her at least, seems pretty positive. That may not be the best example since I don't know much about her but I just bring her up to convey that I don't intrinsically hate pop. I know there is a place for it.

Vijay: If you're completely overlooking Jay-Z's seminal early work, and your summation of Kanye's hugely influential production style is that he "made some nice beats" then what's the point? You're clearly disgusted by hip hop cro$$ing over into the pop realm ("blowhard pop douchebags" "rich dicks" "sellouts" "making lots of hits and lots of money") so why would you ever acknowledge that as an actual achievement of importance, even if millions of people actually enjoy the music? Ffor some perspective, when do you think hip hop stopped evolving? Illmatic or something from that era? Who was the last "revolutionary" artist, of any genre?

Dustin:  1 – I’m not overlooking Jay-Z’s first (and best album). It was a good album. I like it. Did it change music? No. It was good at sounding like what already existed. Hence the Allmusic.com description: “Reasonable Doubt is often compared to another New York landmark, Nas' Illmatic.” But which came first?
 

2 – I’m asking you to tell me Kanye’s influence on music, and your answer is to say “what’s the point of arguing? Clearly I’m right! You just don’t get it!” Honestly, I think Timbaland was more innovative than Kanye. Please, prove me wrong. Show me the amazing difference of how much better hip-hop is after Kanye innovated everything. To me, his early albums had some nice sampling (nothing new) and his new albums sound like Queen but with someone rapping.
 

3 – I used to DJ and play Outkast all the time. They made huge hits and lots of money. I like them. Again, it is not that Jay and Kanye are successful and popular. It’s that this is all that defines them, and their calculating music feels dishonest to me.
 

4 – When did hiphop stop evolving… hmmm. That’s a tough one. In my eyes it has stalled massively in these last five years or so. Grime was new, but I’m not feeling it and it’s not a US thing anyway. I’ve heard a few indie dudes rhyme over some weird electronic Warp type beats. Interesting. Definitely different. Aside from that, I only can think of negative changes: autotune, horrible dirty south tracks, annoying mixtapes replacing albums, continuing decline of political statements, Lil Wayne being considered a genius… I thought Lupe would be the next great rapper but it looks like that ship has sailed (and sank).
 

5 – Last revolutionary artist? Well they certainly don’t come around very often, especially these days. I do think Flying Lotus is pushing boundaries right now. TV on the Radio has a good thing going. Don’t know if they are “revolutionary.” When I think revolutionary, I think of the first time I heard The Downward Spiral. It blew my mind, and to me, remains a classic. Entroducing. That changed music. It was shocking and new and you can see a clear change in music afterwards. So when people put Kanye’s music up at that level, it’s just silly to me. Even if you think it’s a great album and very enjoyable, how can you say it changes anything in terms of the big picture?

Rick: Totally jealous. I wish I had psychic powers. Telekinesis, astral projection, and knowing exactly what something sounds like before hearing it. (I think it's called "codgervoyance").

Dustin: Oh hey Rick. You picked the perfect place to jump into this conversation with that comment. Very insightful and it will totally help this discussion progress and get to a better place.

Rick: Zing! Easy, buddy, just playing around. I haven't commented yet because I'm only on listen #3... still absorbing it, not ready to comment on the album itself. Thought it was interesting that you have so much to say on listen #0.

I thought the album was a bit of a snoozer the first time through, but there's actually a lot of interesting stuff going on, and I'm hearing more and enjoying it more on each listen.

And that's something Kanye has been doing since he started: something new each album. Innovation. There might be his trademark whining on each album, but there's also going to be something you haven't heard before. This is why the PR "battle" between Kanye and 50 a few years back when they were releasing albums on the same week is hysterical in hindsight. Kanye takes risks. Everything 50 does sounds the same and he will be forgotten.

One of the standout tracks in this regard is "Who Gon Stop Me," which is derived from a dubstep tune, and therefore dated in a sense, but it's an interesting track that I've just given three or four listens. If you ever listen to it, let's have a conversation about it.

The simple point is that Kanye's sound keeps changing, so you can't know what a given project sounds like until you hear it.

Vijay: Dustin, I think your queen comment is an unintended compliment. Kanye's lush orchestration, musicality, willingness to experiment sonically, and stylistic evolution makes him the most influential producer of the past decade, hands down. Transcended hip hop/crossed over, whatever. he left timbaland (who became increasingly stale and less relevant) and the Neptunes in his wake long ago. A single album where Kanye tried something completely different (808s) spawned a sound that has taken imitators to to the top of the charts (Drake) and circled back around to indie circles (The Weeknd).

But it all comes down to something you said in your fourth point: but i'm not feeling it ...how exactly do you propose I "prove you wrong" and explain how much better hip hop is post-Kanye if you talk about how much you hate current hip hop in the next paragraph? Convince you that you actually like it deep down?

We just come from completely different places. I fall in love with one album after another over the course of a year and agonize over which one gets top prize; your favorite record of 2010 was the aforementioned Black Keys because, in your words, "I guess I listened to that more than anything else." I constantly overuse words like brilliant and stunning; often the best you can muster with stuff that you actually like is "this is fun." This isn't a personal attack (obviously you should be as selective as you damn well please) but I just feel like your view of what is important/influential comes from a much narrower pool. For example, if you think Entroducing and Downward Spiral are revolutionary, then I think you have to give a nod to many, many more records that made a big impact in their respective sonic spheres (off the top of my head, Nevermind, OK Computer, Discovery...).

But at least the gulf between us makes for good entertainment.

Dustin: I have to say I am pretty disappointed in this latest comment. I find it amazing that in this argument, I have been accused of being both an indie nerd who hates anything mainstream, as well as just some dumb dude who casually listens to music and rates it based on nothing but a random urge felt between bong hits.
In terms of my Queen comment, it wasn't an unintended compliment. I like Queen. My point was in reference to originality. Over the top lush instrumental music is not new. Sure, he has great ability. Big deal. I'd listen to prog if I wanted to hear virtuosity. What is original in his music? That he said, fuck it, I'm going to just make the most obnoxious ostentatious album ever and bring in a choir and 45 tubas for each track? That's been done — a long time ago.
 

But oh wait, then you're going to tell me Kanye's big gift to music was 808s and heartbreak? A pretty much critically panned album even he didn't like that uses a drum machine from the 80s! WOW. What an innovator!
 

You know, at least I will give it to Rick. He made a good point. Fine, I will give Kanye credit for changing up his style, which is something most artists don't do, or don't do well. But all you've said is that aside from Kanye inspiring what will most likely be short lived hit careers from Drake and The Weeknd, he's the best producer hands down because... you say so. I'm asking, where's the massive change in music that a truly monumental perfect 10 album should bring? Where's the shift toward something fresh and different? You mention OK Computer and Nevermind as reference points here. Well Spin just did an issue on the 20th anniversary of Nevermind. Read the issue and tell me if 20 years from now people will be talking about anything Kanye or Jay-Z did in the same way they talk about Nirvana.
 

And honestly, the fact that you don't think I consider OK Computer or Nevermind classics just shows how little you understand about my feelings on music. I didn't think I had to mention the two most obvious classics of our generation. That would have been like saying "also, The Beatles were pretty good." I'm still not sure if I'm supposed to be the snotty hater or the ignorant dumbass. I just know that I'm not the guy who taught MIDI classes. I'm just a dude who listens to music. So I don't bust a nut when someone displays mad music production skills. I'd rather hear a genuinely good emotional honest song played on acoustic guitar than a fake shallow explosion of technical prowess and ego. So you and your brother can sit around and secretly laugh at my emails from a year ago if it makes you happy. "HAHAHA Dustin likes the Black Keys!" Then you can say "Well you just don't understand it." And then you can tell me who is the hater snob here.

Vijay: Dissect and distort all you want, but no one else comes close to taking his title as the most important producer of the past decade. All you could come up with is Timbaland (sorry, no) and dissing Kanye even further. We got it, you hate him. A lot of people do. But that doesn't mean he hasn't had the biggest impact on hip hop/mainstream music. So who is it then? You got nothing (but hate).

And the point with OK Computer and Nevermind is not that I don't think you consider them classics. It's that there have been countless albums of a very high caliber over the years that have been refreshing and inspiring and influential. Bestowing vague "classic" or "groundbreaking" status on a select few is difficult (even you can't be satisfied with your own answer), pointless, and usually only comes after the passage of time. Music hasn't gotten shittier since our nineties heyday; you just got more jaded. There are millions of kids listening to current hip hop and indie rock who are having the same visceral reaction you had to Downward Spiral. Viewing everything through a personal, nostalgic lens is deceptive. And forget a primarily rock outlet like Spin magazine (even though they named the kanye album the best of 2010)... XXL already did a gushing 10th anniversary issue of reasonable doubt and there is no question that other magazines will do kanye retrospectives many years down the road.

And we weren't making fun of you for liking the Black Keys. In fact my brother really likes them. I was making fun of your weak-ass answer to the album of the year question that every music nerd just yearns to be asked and your general struggle to show any real enthusiasm for new music. By the way, that Flying Lotus album you referenced as (possibly?) groundbreaking? in that same e-mail (from when i sent out the Kanye album, appropriately) you called it "too novelty weird" to put as your number one. Thanks Gmail!

So don't blame me for your own identity crisis: you're a big music fan who isn't a fan of much of anything. [I'd insert a cheeky emoticon here if i actually could stomach using one]

Dustin: Okay this is going nowhere. I ask you to describe how music is different in the post-kanye world, all you can now say is "Oh yeah... well name someone better!" I don't care if he is the "most important" producer or not, whatever that even means. If you're a big fish in a shitty small sea, it doesn't mean much in the long run.

What I don't understand is why you can't except the idea of things getting worse. I am a huge drum n bass fan. You know what? That scene is dead. It's depressing. But it stopped evolving and eventually a lot of people who were making that kind of music got into dubstep or other genres. There was a time when people thought drum n bass would be huge, would be the next thing. But it never quite got there, and now it's safe to say its best days are behind it. I believe hip-hop is starting to get there as well. Perhaps a genre born from sampling is just a bit limited. I don't know.

You can try and tell me "it's all relative, it's about taste, some people love what you hate." But I believe in opinions. I think they make things interesting. And I believe that a rap mixtape from the 90s would be better than one from the 00s. And I don't mean "I think" it would be better. I mean it would actually "be" better. In fact, I think that's such an established fact, this is a silly argument. Why else does Rock The Bells year after year star headliners from the 90s years ago performing their complete albums from 15 years ago? I really feel like I'm arguing with a Pearl Jam fan who loved Ten so much, he's in denial that the band's new shit is lame.

 

Vijay: I love it. I paint you as a curmudgeon stuck in the past, and you live up to it in spectacular fashion. Sure '90s hip hop was the golden age but most casual fans and hardcore hip hop heads alike (across the board: critics, writers, our friends sitting on the sidelines) have found plenty to enjoy in the "small shitty sea" of recent years and acknowledge kanye as a milestone artist. Yeah yeah I know you can look into the future, where his legacy will be forgotten (because unlike everyone else you're not impressed) but it is what it is and you're very alone.

And no need to really resort to Pearl Jam analogies because you are pretty much literally saying that most "new shit is lame" with your broad stroke of "things getting worse" and all. And I'm saying, dude, why are you still talking about the old stuff? It's just plain sad that you're so busy lamenting the death of everything that you really struggle to like anything new. Hip hop is dead is an easy platform, but I fear that your miserable outlook goes well beyond that.

Modern music across all genres is a fucking glorious bounty of sounds, and my 33-year-old heart is regularly set racing by one song and album after another. Tthe rush is just as good as the thrills I felt as a teenager. Iin fact, new stuff is probably more exciting than going back and listening to classics that I know like the back of my hand. Meanwhile, you say stuff like [fictional quote this time] "honestly, it was a weak year for music. Been listening to some old metal stuff recently though." Actually, you probably say that most years. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if you literally never use the word "love" when it comes to an album.

So of course this was going nowhere. me (who loves everything) arguing with you (the biggest hater I know) on a thread where you haven't even listened to the album that started it. What did you expect? An actual discussion of the album? Nah (though I have to say it has in a perverse way made me love the record even more).

Dustin: For someone with so much "love" you have resorted time and time again to personal attacks against me. I'm just making statements about music. I think I've made many valid points. In fact, many times over the past few years people I think you would also respect in terms of the musical knowledge, like Jay and Edgar, have expressed similar sentiments lamenting the current state of music. Not saying that EVERYTHING sucks, but saying that there has been a lot of "good" music lately but not a lot of "great" music lately. Dude, I make top 25 lists every year. Obviously there is plenty of stuff I enjoy listening to.
It's just sad to see that when I ask you to explain how Kanye and or Jay-Z has changed music for the better, all you can do is attack me and say "You don't get it. You hate everything. You hate music. Your life must suck." People can and have written essays on the affect of Nevermind or OK Computer or The White Album. If your hiphop heroes here are so great, why can't you do any better than saying "Kanye inspired Drake and The Weeknd" and "he's just the most important producer and everyone agrees with me and you don't because you're wrong and angry and stupid?"
 

I guess it's easier to ridicule me and turn me into some sort of hater caricature, which is obviously nonsense to anyone who even casually knows me. Saying I don't love any albums. Why would I bother putting so much effort into this conversation? If I was just being a troll I'd write little annoying one-liners like Russ just did. The thing is, I probably love music too much, which is why I passionately try to defend it against people like Jay-Z and Kanye, who I think have a negative influence on the music industry by emphasizing a sort of whatever-it-takes heartless fiscal hit-making calculation in favor of just creating music as art, for the love of it.

Vijay: It's not a personal attack; you're better off just embracing your selectivity (the politest term I could think of)... you believe in opinions, right? I know you have some meh merchant friends (at least Edgar explodes with joy on a semi-regular basis when he finds new stuff he loves, and it's awesome) but even they won't follow you this deep into the abyss. I don't have to turn you into a hater caricature, you've more than done the job yourself: there's a lot of "good" but not "great" stuff these days? Seriously? That's exactly what I find so sad. And you see yourself as the passionate defender of all that is good in music against the evil forces of people like Kanye? Even sadder. All the effort you put into your angry ramblings stems from your love of music? Twisted.

And please stop insisting that I explain to you why Kanye is important in the context of current hip hop when you vehemently despise current hip hop. I called it a futile undertaking and you underlined that by taking any attempt at an explanation and ridiculing it and me.

But I think I have an idea on how to end this! how about you actually listen to the album before getting back to me.

 

Dustin: Dude, these days when I love an album, no one even bothers to respond to my emails. Time and time again I told people about Telefon Tel Aviv. No one cared. I try to tell people to come see Elvis Perkins live. It's like pulling teeth. A while ago I sent out an album from a band called Rosetta. NO ONE cared, no one even bothered to respond "I hate this." But anyway, these are bands/artists who I think make real, emotional music that's art, not a product. Sorry if I don't write Pitchforkesque reviews every time I like something. I used to do that for URB and Remix and get paid for it. Now I would imagine I don't have to write lengthy reviews in order to "sell" my friends on music recommendations. I mean, it's great you enjoy doing that but I'd think after all these years it wasn't a mandatory and that just the sheer act of me sending a link is the equivalent of me saying "Hey this is awesome blah blah blah."

I will listen to the album and let you know what I think, but I need time to listen to it anyway. That's what's so funny about this whole thing. When this conversation started, you guys had only just downloaded the album within the last 24 hours! "Dustin, you idiot, how can you talk about an album without hearing it?! But once you listen to the album twice like I have, then you can give lectures on its merits!"

And regardless, whether I like this album or not is immaterial. Since I said up front I had not heard it yet, it was clearly established from the start that this conversation was about Jay-Z and/or Kanye's contributions to modern music leading up to this album being released. So far your points are: • Kanye inspired new production styles that led to artists like Drake and The Weeknd • Jay-Z made a good album in 1996 • I am a miserable person who hates everything and listens to Hitler speeches on his iPod.

Sanjay: I've never heard telefon tel aviv, but I can already tell you that I won't like it. Let me guess, a bunch of people creating sounds at different frequencies that can be construed as sonically pleasing? I can't wait to listen to this amazing, refreshing, groundbreaking album.

Vijay: I was kidding about actually getting back to me after you've listened to the album (I honestly meant let's drop this). I mean, I wonder what you might think [glances upward]. I said pretty much nothing about the album itself, let alone lecture you on its merits, so both of us have a clean slate in that respect. I guess you could come back and quote all the lines you hate, but please spare us. I'd like to think that after all these years it isn't mandatory and the sheer act of not responding is the equivalent of saying "hey Dustin hates this blah blah blah" and we all go home happy (?).

Josh Dick: The problem for me, is that depending on the day, I’m either of you. There’s Josh Dick who is waiting for Phineas and Ferb to create a portal so that I could just go back to the early 90’s and stay in that golden age, and then there’s Josh Dick who has been bumping a lot of different stuff recently that he really likes.

Here is my take, with a full disclosure to start this off: My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy is one of my favorite albums in the last few years, and I’m an overall Kanye fan (though I never listened to 808’s).

I guess we’re discussing two things here, right? Whether or not Watch The Throne is any good, but more importantly, Kanye and Jay’s impact with regards to Hip Hop in general and their legacy.

I think I’ll tackle the latter first, as it will lead into the former.

Without getting into some kind of Rick “Welcome To Hip Hop” speech, I think it’s important to note what “hip hop” is. It was founded on being an “MC”, with the definition of that being a “Master of the Ceremony”. That is hip hop. That is what hip hop needs to be judged and graded by at the end of the day. So now, 30 years later, yes of course, you look at acts like Run DMC, Public Enemy, Rakim, and Big Daddy Kane and can immediately note their legacy as having taking the Cold Crush Brothers to that next level. They were all pioneers and should be regarded as so. The next evolution brought across some of the most creative hip hop we will EVER see. Whether it was Native Tongues, Hieroglyphics, Organized Konfusion, Pete Rock & CL Smooth, etc – these were all alternative evolutions of rap that were EXTREMELY appealing to people like those on this e-mail chain. They were ALL mc’s, and they were all saying something new, different, creative, and relevant.

And yet, I’m at an Organized Konfusion show at BB King’s – their first show in over 10 years – and there’s 300 people there.

As much as a group like that is timeless to us, it reached a very limited demo and had a very small window.

Go to a Public Enemy show, and there’s 20,000 less people than there were in the 80’s.

Now, take a look at what Jay-Z is currently doing. The man is going to be 42 this year. 42!!! He’s been doing this for 16 years! More number 1 albums, songs, awards, than all of Undakova’s goggles put together. More importantly, sold out concerts everywhere he goes. NO one in rap music has EVER had a run like this. To be the “old dude” and still be viewed and looked up to by kids as the greatest? Do you know hard that is in hip hop? All of the legends I mentioned below lasted 2-3 albums before people moved on to the next one.

ALL of the things Dustin said about the music are true. Hell, I love Reasonable Doubt, Blueprint, and Hard Knock Vol 2 from Jay.  But that’s really it as far as FULL albums go. Everything else are songs here and there (but some of those songs I do really love). As far as content, I’d go with Juggaknotts “Clear Blue Skies” over anything he’s ever done. But again, I go back to that “mc” definition. He is not writing for us. He is adjusting what he’s doing and writing to the ever evolving fickle rap crowd. We’re still as smart as ever, but kids today are stupider than ever. For every one of us who doesn’t like hearing about Maybach’s, f*cking Beyonce, and how hard it is to be Jay-Z, there are 1,000 other fans who DO. And he manages to make them ALL happy.

See here’s the thing I take from it. It’s not necessarily the CONTENT, but rather, the delivery. Generally speaking, I think most of Jay-Z’s beats are pretty fresh.  So that’s always something that I’m cool with as the musical bed. But as far as the lyrics, even if I’m bored with the idea of talking about this material shit, I’m always thoroughly impressed with how slick he is when he says it. Random example from WTT, “Gotta Have It” – “Cause I’m richer/Richard, and Pryor/prior to this shit I was moving Freebase”.

I don’t know. I guess I feel like there are different types of things I look for in hip hop, and each artist serves a certain purpose and when I’m in the mood for conscious music, I’ll throw in that. If I’m in the mood to just listing to something big, overproduced and bombastic (and I mean that all as a compliment), I throw this on.

Kanye is basically mini-Jay. There’s not a chance in hell he doesn’t keep these last 8 years going for another 8. He’s a force that will not go away. So my longevity = legacy argument applies to him as well.

But here is the thing with Kanye. He is our age. Born in 78. Grew up listening to the same Main Source records we did. And to me, his music reflects that. It’s all a derivative from that era, at least sonically. Lyrically, I think he’s solid, and has only gotten better. And to me, he does write songs. Stuff like “Hey Mama”, “Spaceship”, etc.

Now you guys are WAYYYYYY more into the production end of it than I am, and whether or not he over does it on everything. I happen to think his beats are BANANAS. Whether he samples or not, it all sounds like it was sampled. And that’s what I miss most about rap. Those dirty samples.

Something else to keep in mind. Rap has a MUCH different handicap than other forms of music. To my knowledge, Radiohead and Nirvana never had to put 50 bars filled with different words into their songs. I guess that comes off like an excuse, but it has to be considered. When you put out as much music as these guys have, and say as many words as they have, eventually all you CAN do is talk about your day in day out cause there’s nothing else.

As far as Watch The Throne, listened to it a few times, and really like it. Could grow to love it. I think the beats are bonkers. Can’t really comment on the lyrics since I need to REALLY listen to that, but it seems like standard issued Jay/Kanye.

Which I guess brings us back to the beginning. Dustin is choosing to avoid it, because it’s more of the same ol same ol. And that is TOTALLY fine and pretty on point. Vijay and I don’t avoid it, because we appreciate it for what it is. And I feel like Jay is somewhere in the middle.

But you cannot deny the legacy of each of these artists. They will go down as two of the best to ever do it, and to me, they deserve the title.

There are a lot of thoughts I had that escaped my head because I’m doing this and working, so I’m sure there are arguments I could have made more intelligently. But hopefully this conveyed most of my thoughts.

Edgar: The whole world needs to read this battle. It is brilliant. I will certainly read it again because it was so enjoyable. I agree on so many levels with BOTH of you.

KANYE: I dislike Kanye but he will always be remembered and has been so creative, so innovative with his beats and production for a WHILE now. I will never EVER forget where I was when I first heard GET BY - sitting on the floor in the living room of Jackie's place on Steinway. Luckily they were MTV heads and had it always on and this came on and it blew me away. Yes, Talib IS probably my favorite emcee ever but the beat is what got me off the bat. He did most of Common's BE and FINDING FOREVER (right Jay?) which I still listen to and despite my overall dislike of Kanye's two newest albums there are some AMAZING beats on each....so clever, VERY different and original unlike anything I've ever heard in the past or present in Hip Hop. I rarely ever listen to his lyrics because Im usually figuring out whats going on in his beats, the layers, effects, etc etc. He is one of a kind, always fresh and always an interesting listen... you never know what you're gonna get :) I LOVED Timbo, let me reiterate - I ADORED TIMBO - and I hate to say this but they aren't even close to being on the same level. Not that Dusty was comparing but just wanted to make that point.

JAY-Z: I love his first album and love his producers throughout the years. His hits have been great even Empire State of Mind... I'm sorry but that hook is great as many times as its been overplayed aka played out. Hard Knock Life = incredible. And whoever did the American Gangster beat is a GOD! Jay-Z knows how to kill it even though overall I dislike him :) although not as much as Kanye.

MUSIC:

I still love getting new music and do get chills still when I hear something amazing and yes I still go back to the classics over and over again...maybe and probably nothing will ever be better than OK Computer but you never know and thats the fun of it and sometimes there are tracks that are better... guys MUSIC is AMAZING is all Im saying and I think we all agree on that and now I'm just freetyping... I mean how good is the opening track of Gang Gang Dance? How good is Gold Panda? Action Bronson? Everything Everything? Dirty Projectors (Vij I know you dislike them) HOW GOOD IS THE BJORK EARLY RELEASED SINGLE?! This is why it's all love! This is as important as food and water and air!!! These amazing moments where our brains for the 1 - 10 minutes (a lot of Prefuse tracks are a little over a minute and obviously some Prog and Metal tracks are 10 but I guess I could've put 30 for Iron Butterfly or some Classical movements) get to live in the fantastical world where anything is possible, where nothing else matters, where we get in touch with who we really are... and we get to share and I get to say Flying Lotus is eh... ok I'm back... sorry for that.

BTW, Only Dusty could pull off a battle of the bands without listening to the album....absolutely amazing... I'm still giggling. I think Battle of the Bands should be retired after this one. It can NEVER be better... it really should be published. I want to argue that this battle's flow is as good or better than OK Computer. 

Jason Newman: I will battle you over the battle.

As for Jay-Z though, I would argue that before him (and Big), hip-hop was mostly about braggadocio via loudness and an aggressiveness bordering on anger... the emcees that kept it more subdued (Buckshot, Guru etc.) vocally still had this intensity that was a bit over-the-top (love them both though.) Jay was different... he had to the air of being so cool, so unflappable, that he didn't need to raise his voice and proclaim why he was the best... he recognized that if you're that confident and assured of your abilities (of which he had a ton until '99 and then sporadically after that), you could just be cool about it. "Friend or Foe" is the best example I can think of off the top. That had an enormous effect on rappers. Also, storytelling obviously existed before him, but he was really the first to play with the timing of words, speeding up or slowing down particular words or phrases for maximum impact. Lot of good rappers were influenced by that.


I also think, and you'll prob disagree, that some of his lines really are brilliant..."You'll be wearing a black suit a long time" "Left the paramedics breathing soft on him"... actual evocative images before he got rich and started rhyming about St. Tropez and his portfolio. Elevated hip-hop and forced semi-intelligent rappers to actually use metaphors instead of just "I'ma kill you."


On a lesser note, and I personally don't love this, but he's also credited with changing the whole mindset of hip-hop from "I'm going to rob you" to "I didn't want to sell drugs, but I did and I will try to explain to you the circumstances behind what forced me to do it" aka the "sensitive thugs" movement. A good Republican like myself can rip this apart but regardless, it influenced a generation of rappers.


I have a LOT of issues with him, particularly his blatant trend-hopping, soulless commercial raps and unprecedented levels of hucksterism (I think I told you this, but I saw the business plan that planned out his "retirement", comeback etc. and the wizard came out from behind the curtain that day), but I can't deny his influence.

Russ: Would this be a good time for me to mention that the last Radiohead album really sucked?

No? Ok then... carry on...
 

:p

My Beautiful Dark Twisted Argument: Battle Royale on the new Kanye

Vijay: At first i predicted a 9.4 but then after seeing that late registration got a 9.5, I revised my estimate to a stratospheric 9.7... yet still I was wrong...

Russ: Hm. I can't agree with a 10 on it - it's not OK Computer. 9.7 or 9.8 is fine, not 10.

Vijay: It's impossible to recognize an OK Computer as being an OK Computer when it first comes out.

Russ: Good point, but the bottom line is that this album has one song that sucks: "So Appalled" So it can't get a 10.

Edgar: I mean really? What's the big deal? Oh wait I know, his name starts with Kanye and ends with West. I get it now.

Vijay: Read the Rolling Stone review, which I think absolutely nails it, and so succinctly. The reason all these perfect scores are rolling out is because no one else out there is capable of making this batshit awesome futuristic hip-pop grandeur. Opulent mad genius at its very finest. I thought the Drowned in Sound review was also excellent:

"To add to the thematic elements, on a purely musical level, MBDTF is West's most fully realized work to date. He's more sonically and lyrically spot-on than he's ever been. The production is trademark West, displaying a musicality which puts nearly any contemporary pop music to shame."
"This album should serve as a challenge to any other artists who feel that rap as a genre is constrictive to stepping their game up (cough, Andre 3000, cough). For rap fans it's both a testament to the versatility of the genre and Kanye's own brilliance that he can make something so refreshingly different which still fits comfortably in the rap canon."

Dustin: I just listened to the album. I don't get it. What's the big deal? I'm not hating but 10.0? I mean, already I can say the songs are too long. They average over 5 minutes. I think Pitchfork will regret this rating in the future.

Vijay: It's a pop thing. Kanye seems to fancy himself as a modern day MJ but I'm thinking Prince may be more appropriate. As much as Edgar will freak out about me making the comparison, there is a definite parallel. When Purple Rain came out in 1984, I'm sure that the people who were listening to The Smiths, Black Flag, The Ramones, even U2, were saying similar things about this downright weird little dude doing this grandiose pop shit: I don't get it, who does he think he is, he just says dumb stuff, he spells stuff all gay, etc...

"But Prince was an amazing musician," you're screaming.
Which is where I'm honestly surprised that some people can just coldly dismiss it as bad beats with bad lyrics without appreciating the sheer musicality that this asshat happens to have. From a purely sonic perspective, it's thrilling stuff that "makes everybody else on the radio sound laughably meek." It's pretty clear just from the music but then when you read about how hard he works, it's even more impressive. He is just a ridiculous producer/mastermind that is able to execute ambitious ideas on a massive scale.
It may be tragic in some ways, but he is the pop star/rock star of these times, and he has elevated his game to unleash his piece de resistance, a thematically cohesive and wide-reaching monster. Which is why there are all these five star and 10/10 reviews. That other review nailed it when they talked about people like Andre 3000 now having the pressure on to do something bigger and better ("The Love Below" is wildly overrated, sorry). I don't think Pitchfork will regret this one — if anything, it is already apparent that this album is "more important" (cringe) than the Wilco and Trail of Dead albums they also gave 10.0 will ever be. And it's way, way beyond a Pitchfork discussion at this point...take a look at the Metacritic ratings:

Edgar: I'm not a Kanye hater in terms of production. I fell in love with many of his productions for Talib's and Common's albums. "Get By" is amazing. "The People," another classic. But I'm never highly impressed by what he does for himself and frankly he can go suck it as an emcee. He will never come close, for me, to Nas' rawness, Guru's honesty and Talib's gorgeous metaphors. All have made me weep and still do.

He's got a nice ear but I've already forgotten about the album. Didn't catch me on first listen and hasn't afterwards. I'll bust out a Dusty "meh" overall. Favorite part of the album are the last two tracks and more specifically Heron's excerpt.

Dustin: First let me say that I do not hate this album. There are good songs. I'm just saying it's overrated. I agree with Edgar on the MC part for sure.

Now, since when does grandiosity and virtuosity equate to good music? I don't listen to Steve Vai or Dream Theatre, even though I recognize that they are very good musicians. And yes, I give it to Kanye, he is great in the studio and very ambitious and talented. However, to me, music is not solely about the showing off of skills. Music is about emotion. And that's why comparing Kanye to Prince or MJ is laughable. Can anything Kanye do ever make you feel the way "Purple Rain" (the song) does, or "Man in the Mirror?" Not even close.

Vijay: Oh, there's emotion in there, especially on this one, but you'd never, ever sense it if you're approaching the whole thing with a meh attitude.

Dustin: Or perhaps you'd find yourself unreasonably emotional when listening to it if you're approaching the whole thing with a this is going to be the best album of the year attitude.

Vijay: I went into it having liked a couple tracks on each album, nothing more and nothing less. I still think his previous albums are overrated. But I was stunned at what he pulled off on this one.

That's not only neutral, it's absolutely nothing like your "he's just so dumb but i guess i'll have to give it a shot because everyone is talking about it (and then hate on it because everyone is talking about it)" stance.

Dustin: Okay, I'll take it back that I said you wanted to like it. But I also said I don't hate it. I said I think some of the songs are good. I just think 10.0 is ridiculous. It seems pretty unfair that I can't even give a reasonable critique without being called a hater.

Vijay: When you claim that it lacks emotion or general worth or whatever (it has no soul) that very well may be because you're literally just not feeling it, but it can come across as originating from a place of indifference where you can't be bothered to even try, especially when you've branded the guy an idiot before you've even listened to the album.

Calling the rave reviews ridiculous and claiming that there's no way a Kanye song carries any real emotional heft can seem more like you're mocking those people who happen to connect with the album, and less of a "reasonable critique." Hence the cries of hater, though I actually like "meh merchant" better (i just came up with that!).

Dustin: I only bring up emotion because your review (and many others) was mainly a rave about his production skills and creativity in the studio. And to that I say, yes, I agree. He is good at what he does. And yes, he does convey emotion. But the emotion of a Kanye or a Jay-Z is in my opinion limited to bravado. Sure, they're good when you want to go out and rage or when you feel like someone is oppressing you and you need a boost, but that's pretty limiting to me. That's why I brought it back to MJ and Prince, the two artists Kanye has been compared to recently. MJ songs, however innocent and childish they may have been at times, could inspire, could make you feel melancholy, could invoke romance. I just feel like even when Kanye is at his most skillful musically, his music remains hollow because he is not "about" anything but himself. His music is about making music and being a "success." This has been my same issue with Jay-Z and why I will always choose Nas over him, even though Nas is insane and makes a lot of horrible songs.

So yeah, I can and sometimes do enjoy Kanye, but it's just... fun. And that does not place him on a level of classic stature in my opinion.

Edgar: Agree and AGREE! Nothing Kanye has ever made, in my humblest opinion, can evoke the intense emotion or imagery of a "N.Y State Of Mind." A true classic. Makes my soul cringe every time I listen to it. Kanye is a gifted producer but its hard to separate him from MTV and what that godforsaken station means to this country and what it has become. Thats another discussion though. Blergh! Im sickened now thinking about this.

Vijay: It's not the usual, tired rap bravado. There is some dark and fascinating shit going on, "a hedonistic exploration into a rich and famous American id," a mad genius who is always on the brink of losing control, and he addresses his insanity head on. I mean, you realize that he is literally calling himself a douchebag on the lead single, right?

Egotistical, sure. but limited to the same old "I am the greatest" bullshit? If you choose to go back and listen closer you may be surprised. The Pitchfork review, by the way, barely addresses the production and music and focuses almost entirely on the thematic elements. The Village Voice also had a good piece on "plumbing the gorgeous nightmares" of the album (love that).
It's getting this amazing critical reception because both elements are there: the musicality and a compelling narrative (no one is saying "concept" though, which is kind of interesting). It does raise him to classic stature, and it does make this a landmark album, even if you're uninterested in the story he's telling.

Jay: If I may interject, it sounds like the crux of this argument is that Dustin would not give a 10 to an album based on musicality alone if it does not affect him as a listener whereas Vijay at times divorces the two when deciding his opinion. Perhaps that is the impasse.

As for my opinion, after two full listens: 7.5/10. It starts off real strong but the second half is definitely weaker than first. Some songs go on too long but I like the surprising shifts mid-song, which are rare, if not nonexistent, in hip hop production. Album of the year? Hardly. I don't even think this is Kanye's best (that would be Late Registration). But I do think he's the best at conducting aka knowing how to combine disparate elements into cohesive wholes. Still, I think all this "GREATEST ALBUM EVER" stuff is more the result of A. People (critics?) unable to resist the rise, fall and redemption of a musical superstar and B. No one wants to be the person who gives it a less-than-stellar review for fear of being mocked, hence why many critics are gutless wonders. But there's some banging stuff on it.

Vijay: A. Since when are people interested in redemption? The whole modern celebrity culture obsession is only interested in the fall. The harder, the better. Build 'em up and tear 'em down. With a strong emphasis on the latter — after all, that's the fun part. Fuck second chances. With someone has been such an incredible egotistical douche, you honestly think people are clamoring to facilitate a rebirth of sorts? Doesn't make much sense to me.

B. And similarly, people being afraid of giving it a less than stellar review? If the aforementioned love of celebrity downfall wasn't bad enough, the holier-than-thou snarky elitism of the indie snob may be worse. In fact, I'm absolutely shocked that a meh merchant hasn't written a scathing contrarian backlash piece for a major site, even just as linkbait. Instead, everyone from little truly nerdy niche sites like Tiny Mix Tapes and Coke Machine Glow (that love seriously avant garde drone music and shit) all the way up to Rolling Stone are recognizing its brilliance. I just feel writers at all these sites were like, "oh man this grandiose pop shit is brilliant, please let me nerd out and fawn over it" as opposed to "I better join the chorus and praise it to the high heavens... damn, how am I going to make this convincing?"

Jay: I don't agree that "the whole modern celebrity culture obsession is only interested in the fall." People obviously love tearing down but in this case, there were so many fans of Kanye who either gave him a pass or out-and-out enjoyed his jackass behavior that they wanted to celebrate this alleged "rebirth." The story is just too compelling. I'm not saying they also don't like the music but if this was, say, his debut album without any of the backstory, there is no way these reviews are as stellar as they currently are.

Vijay: But for people like me and Russ, the only part of the backstory that we care about is the musical backstory: that it's his best album yet.

Jay: Well, someone agrees with me — Pitchfork: "The takeaway was that even though Kanye went through an 'extremely hard year,' the initial sales of his album meant that 'people want me to keep making music and not give up.' It's a redemption story, old as time, and enduring for a reason."

Vijay: That was the "takeaway" of Kanye's rant itself (during which people were actually heckling him). Of course he sees the album sales as redemption after swiftgate and all that garbage, but I still am struggling to see that as strongly influencing practically all journalists to go much farther than they would have otherwise.

I mean, come on, give music nerds some credit. Everyone is just so mesmerized and swayed by this bona-fide asshole's supposedly triumphant return that they're like, "jack the ratings up to the max! I don't care what the album sounds like... he's baaaaaaaaaaaaaaack!"?

Jay: Not as extreme, but yes, I think that's exactly what happened. His whole arc this past year was enough for an extra star or point or whatever. It's naive to think that that has no impact or influence on how the music is perceived.

Vijay: So it's really a 9/10 instead of a perfect score? I'll gladly accept that. Not to be ethno-biased or whatever, but I think British reviews of the album are a good, somewhat detached barometer... you've got NME with a 9/10 and The Guardian with a very fair 8/10, calling it a "flawed near-masterpiece."

Dustin: I really really don't want to stretch this out any longer but I have to say, I was listening to "The Blame Game" with John Legend just now, and I was like, "Okay, maybe I was too harsh about the whole emotion thing. This seems like a pretty heartfelt song. I'll give it to him." And then Chris Rock came out talking about "I never been to that part of pussy town before." Are you kidding me! Is this the Jerky Boys? You're going to tell me this is a classic? THIS? How are you going to take a supposedly serious ballad type song and end it with that? Not only is it dumb, but it's crass. Actually, it's "fuckin ridiculous."

Vijay: Yeah, no hip hop classics contain any stupid filler skits.

Dustin: Why would you put that skit there? Why? Seriously. I want to know. Maybe the most serious and "moving" song on the album, and he ends it with that. Not even a separate track either. Even on the "hip hop generally sucks sliding scale" I find it hard to understand.

Russ: The skit is funny for like three listens. After that it's annoying. I don't get skits, I don't understand why they exist at all but they seem to be a part of the process. It would make a lot more sense to me as a bonus track or something you put on a single. So yeah, it's out of place in the song, but in my opinion all skits are out of place period.

Jay: Okay, I think we have come to an agreement...it's around a 7/8 which i think is a fair score. Unless you're Dustin. Then it's a 3.

Edgar: Or me who thinks a 3 is pushing it. I just don't get it.

Russ: He rhymed sarcophagus with esophagus. I'm sold.