Jon: When John Peel says "This is Lightning Bolt," there's this swath of echo and reverb in his voice. It sounds pretty cool. Then it sounds like Lightning Bolt are playing for a few minutes, and then they just kind of stop for a few minutes so Phish can take the stage.Russ: Okay, before I destroy you I want to make something clear to everyone reading this: You are not kidding—correct? You are not doing this as a joke, you actually believe that the majority of the Lightning Bolt John Peel Session sounds like the jam-band Phish, right?
Now, having answered that, can you please tell me what it is exactly about this performance that makes them sound like Phish? I hear no similarities at all.
Jon: I'm not kidding. I wish I were. Everyone screams "lighting bolt! Lightning Bolt! LIGHTNING BOLT!" I scream "Phish?!"
Lightning Bolt is a jam-band. The Peel Session is very jam-band-y. I can picture them playing Woodstock 2000 as overtanned new age hippies are smoking pot and screaming "awesome!" while they wave lighters in the air.
This reeks of a jam band. Every now and then there's a bit that's more aggressive than your average jam band, but I don't see anything that really sets them apart. I think John Peel felt the same way—either he was poorly hiding an advanced form of Alzheimers, or he was high as a fucking kite (I'm betting on the latter)—if not for the fact that he ends his outro calling it one of the best performances he's seen, he also praises Erase Errata.
No one praises Erase Errata, aside from college aged lesbians going through their post-structualism is cool/I heart Kathy Acker phase.
Russ: Okay, Jon, I need to direct you a bit or else this battle won't go anywhere. Stay focused. We are not talking about John Peel's opinion, this is about my opinion and your totally fucking retarded opinion. We are not talking about Erase Errata, we are talking about Lightning Bolt. Keep your comments focused to the battle—I'm not interested in your stupid post-structuralism lesbian tangents, and neither is anyone else. You say Lightning Bolt sounds like Phish, and I say that you are a fucking moron. Keep the battle there. Nobody gives a fuck about Kathy Acker.
That being said, the only thing you said that was relevant to answering my question was "every now and then there's a bit that's more aggressive than your average jam band, but I don't see anything that really sets them apart."
Lightning Bolt crushes skulls. They play with such intensity that I can hardly even believe that there are two people unleashing this massive sonic assult that is making my head explode in the most wonderful way imaginable. Phish doesn't crush anything. Their music is weak—crappy little drippy songs about lizards and mockingbirds that they sing while hopping up and down on trampolines. Well-composed, yes, but it's for pussies. I should know—I've seen Phish live over 60 times back when I was a hippy—unfortunately I'm very familiar with that awful, awful band. I am ashamed to admit that I am an expert on Phish.
Lightning Bolt sings about putting George W. Bush in a vat of oil and boiling him until his ears fall off. They beat the living shit out of you with heavy demonic riffs and a drummer that plays like a metronome on acid. They rock so hard that sometimes I can't even believe that this music exists. Phish is the complete opposite of Lightning Bolt.
Your argument is that this Lightning Bolt show sounds like Phish. I challenge you to cite one piece of music made by Phish—anything from a live show or cut in a studio—that sounds like this Lightning Bolt show.
Jon: I'm focused, or at least trying to, but it's hard listening to this shit.
And John Peel and Errase Errata and lesbians are relevant. They form a corollary to my argument. Or is my argument a corollary to them? I'm confused. It's this damn hippie shit that's playing.
If Lightning Bolt crushes skulls, the skulls must be the size of ants, and they're probably only crushed by accident as the members of Lightning Bolt daintily prance around them. I'd say step, but step sounds too manly. Prance seems like the better term. I bet they all cry together whenever one of those tiny ant skulls is crushed, and they follow it with a group hug before they all take bong hits and jam on something happy to make them feel better.
You're only half right about Phish—their music is indeed "weak—crappy little drippy songs about lizards and mockingbirds that they sing while hopping up and down on trampolines." But the "well-composed" part? You must be too much back in your former hippy pussy mindset from listening to all that Lightning Bolt.
I didn't hear any demonic riffs. I heard a lot of freeform/avant-garde jazz guitar and percussion sections—especially in "On Fire," right before they jump into and especially during that part that sounds like a lullaby about halfway into the song.
I don't have any Phish songs. I don't know them at all. Whenever I've heard them, I've said "this is awful shit" and made someone change the music.
This Lighting Bolt recording is anything but hard though—it's fast and aggressive AT MOMENTS, but overall I find it more pretty and light. Lightning Bolt is unarguably a jam band. Listening to it more, I find a bit more in common with freeform/avant-garde jazz, but I still find them very similar in approach to the little Phish I've heard.
I'm so surprised at how worked up you can get over this. I find it kind of boring.
Russ: I'm not worked up Jon. This blog is for entertainment, and unloading on you with both barrels during this battle has been entertaining for me, and hopefully it will be for others as well. Don't take it personally.
That being said, you just ended this battle by admitting that you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.
You called this battle. Nobody said, "let's have a battle where one guy says that Lightning Bolt sounds like Phish and the other guys says that they don't." That's because it is quite likely that you are the only person on the face of the Earth who would make such an asinine comment. This Lightning Bolt-Phish battle was 100 percent your idea.
You fully and openly admit that you are completely unfamiliar with Phish. Your words: "I don't know them at all."
You demonstrate that you don't know Lightning Bolt either. You said that "I heard a lot of freeform/avant garde jazz guitar," but Jon, there is no guitar. Lightning Bolt is a drummer and a bass player. There is no guitar.
Based on your self-proclaimed ignorance of Phish, there is no battle here. This "battle" is between a guy that knows quite a bit about Phish and Lightning Bolt and a guy that knows nothing about either band but for some reason wanted to battle. And that's not a battle—it's a slaughter—not to mention a complete waste of my time. Pick yourself up off the mat and hit the showers.
It's over Johnny.
Jon: "You fully and openly admit that you are completely unfamiliar with Phish..."
I don't know them at all. That doesn't mean that I haven't heard them. I don't know Christina Aguilera at all either, but from what I've heard she sounds like run of the mill awful pop crap. You don't have to be a die-hard Phish fan to say "Hey, this sounds like Phish." I think you've got this ex -hippy standard that I must know them as intimately as you.
"You said that 'I heard a lot of freeform/avant-garde jazz guitar' but Jon, there is no guitar..." Hate to break this to you Russ: it's called a bass guitar. The high strings sound more like a guitar than a bass, and with octave shifters (like LB is known to use), they sound even more similar. Hell, you can even stuff a bass through a distortion pedal and make notes that sound like guitar chords. And oh, wait, what's this? Lightning Bolt have acknowledged Sun Ra as an influence.
"...there is no battle here. This "battle" is between a guy that knows quite a bit about Phish and Lightning Bolt and a guy that knows nothing about either band but for some reason wanted to battle..."
Lightning bolt is a jam band. Phish is a jam band. They both get on stage and wank (or sit in the middle of the crowd and wank—it's your call). You say they're angsty noise, fine, but you're wrong. They're artful pretty noise and they jam on it (like those moments where Sonic Youth just play feedback so they can call it art, but then everyone just leaves). I think years of listening to pussy shit like Phish warped your mind and gave you a really low bar on what hard music is, and gave you the inability to realize its a jam band when they're two feet in front of you.
Russ: Stay down Johnny, stay down.
19 comments:
Just in case you are not familiar with either the Lightning Bolt John Peel session or Phish.....
This is the song "On Fire" from the John Peel session:
http://download.yousendit.com/BCCA5527617A8353
This is a Phish song called "Sleeping Monkey":
http://download.yousendit.com/30B4267121F48BC6
This is the Lightning Bolt John Peel session in its entirety:
http://download.yousendit.com/8D805EFF5BCAB30D
And this is a Phish live show in it's entirety:
http://download.yousendit.com/F13CC8A9394AF118
You can find several Lightning Bolt videos and songs here:
http://www.myspace.com/russwishtart
Thanks,
-Russ
- Winner: Russ. Jon did not seem to prove that he knew Phish, thus invalidating his argument.
- "Lightning bolt is a jam band. Phish is a jam band. They both get on stage and wank."
I dunno, man. I've always thought there was a difference between "jam bands" and "bands that jam." Just because a group use long instrumental passages doesn't automatically qualify them as a "jam band." If that was the case, no one would be using the word "Prog."
- I would also be curious -- and bear in mind I don't really have an opinion about LB either way too strongly -- to see what you would consider hard music if they are "pretty and light." Do you listen to songs involving actual human sacrifices/eating of humans alive? Were you raised by parents who bought snuff films and listened to GG Allin?
- I would think the drummer would be more "Metronome on coke or speed" rather than acid but that's just me.
Jon... you have a unique and fascinating view of lightning bolt... and you are objectively wrong.
You hear "freeform/avant-garde jazz guitar"? I was almost surprised that you didn't follow this up with a comment about LB's string section, or how you think their layered vocal harmonies are overdone...
The only explanation for this comment is that you're actually deaf, and when you touch the speaker to "feel" the music, something about the vibrations from LB reminds you of jazz.
Distorting a bass -- even pitch-shifting it -- doesn't make it sound like a jazz guitar.
LB reminds me of Cliff Burton's solos, in a very good way. In case you aren't familiar, Burton was a famous jazz guitarist.
Russ... I'm positive this guy is joking, regardless of what he says. This is like saying Sigur Ros sounds like early Pantera. He can't be serious. No one could possibly believe that LB sounds like Phish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGjIpKL2ozg
I have to say that I do see Jon's point. While LB does not sound like a jam band or a jazz group, conceptually you can compare them to someone like the Bad Plus or some hippie noodling group you'd see at Bonarroo. I'm not saying I agree with Jon, but I do see what he's saying.
Also, this was a pretty sweet battle so props to both of you guys.
IM conversation about the battle:
Russell: http://battleoverbands.blogspot.com/
Sanjay: my god
i don't even think slaughter is the right word
Russell: ha!
Sanjay: to use mortal kombat lingo, i would equate that 'battle' to a flawless victory for mr. wishtart
i couldn't believe his argument was based on a completely ridiculous analogy
Russell: the one where Liu Kang turns into a dragon and bites the other guy's head off?
oh, that's a fatality
Sanjay: hahahaha yea either that one or kano ripping the guy's heart out
Russell: right
Sanjay: [while its still beating]
Russell: amen
You're all crazy. Have you never heard experimental jazz?
There's a giant difference between a jazz guitar and a guitar in an experimental jazz ensemble.
I jumped onto amazon since I knew they had samples, and I typed in 'avant garde jazz'
this is the first thing that popped up
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000001HEW/ref=tag_tdp_i_title/103-5334293-3927065?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=5174
listen to the first track
if you don't see a similarity in structure and approach, you're crazy
I watched those videos, and I stand by my thoughts - they not up there playing crazy, they're very introspective playing off each other and super focused on their music.
jon makes a very valid point. So what that LB rocks hard hes talking about the underlying structure. here i would defer a little phish is ya know a noodlin kinda band a la miles davis and lb is similiar but quite different they play around more have a little for freedom (use of Peter Edwards electronics, less adherence to a domintanting structure(phish is trying to malodic lb isnt) i guess youd say but the thing is each group is talented artists (even if phish's music sucks) that are in tune with each other and their sound so Russ eat a dick you dont know what you are talkin about and jon is trying to point out structurial similarities though they dont sound the same their sound comes from a similiar place even though lb does it better and more creatively
I started reading that comment until I read the part where he said that Phish is a noodling band a la Miles Davis.
I immediately stopped and grabbed my shovel. I'm off to the Bronx. I have to dig up Miles Davis' body and turn him over so he is right side up in his casket.
Stay anonymous - lest this shovel find the back of your skull.
Shame on you.
Um if you knew anything anything at all you'd understand that Mile Davis is the fucking orginator and phish rips his style im not comparing their talents fuck heads their style (the way their music is formed not the actual sound or if one is better than another; a band can use a style and not to it justice in phish's case but still use it fucking dumbasses). Its called call and response if youve ever listened to miles its what he does but ingeniously better than phish jesus get off your high horses and realize what you are even talking about and know where music comes from im sure phish's stoner asses used to get high and be like hm we can play this kinda music and thus the creation of their god awful music i think miles davis has turned in his grave many a times so suck it you lame fucks
I mean if you really want to we can sheet the music phish plays and i can show you how the leader chooses a chord noodles within it and passes it on in a call and response fashion that way they sound improvised so its either canned or by noodling within these chord structures and YES miles david did this very similiarly 40 years before and better so fuck you
Administrator's note: I have removed all references to the leader of the Third Reich. Apparently this seems to disturb some people. From now on let's try to only talk about music nazis here, not actually nazis, even if it's just in metaphor terms. I've also decided to postpone posting the battle comparing the accomplishments of Fred Durst and AIDS.
P.S. That was a joke.
I think I'll stay on my high horse. I like it up here. It's a nice view.
high horse of ignorance
high horse of ignorance
Actually, the horse's name is Fred. He's pretty smart for a horse. His grammar skills are much better than yours, that's for sure. Fred really digs Chuck Berry.
Hey buddy, I have an idea. Instead of being a pussy and posting anonymous comments on this blog, why don't you actually do a battle? You can email Dustin and he can give you a list of bands that he is looking for people to battle over. Just go to http://www.dustinland.com to get in contact with him.
Mr Wishtart I congratulate you on succeeding this battle...You are a man of great knowledge when it comes to music...owning over 2,000 records of diverse range....you must know your shit.
You do.
You won.
Congratulations!!!!
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